<div dir="ltr">I'd be comfortable moving to a flat 1-turn penalty, but it should be clear that penalties are <u>supposed</u> to be painful in short-course racing. Sailors should take that into account when making risky plays. Coming in on port at the windward mark is a perfect example. You might win big by doing it, but you also might lose big. If you eliminate the risk of losing big when you take that risk (either by not spinning or only spinning once), you inherently change the game. I'd argue you're changing the game in a bad way.<div>
<br></div><div style>Let's plan to talk as a group after racing tonight. I'm sure everyone has a different take, but no need to send out emails to everyone on the list as we hash it out. :)</div><div style><br></div>
<div style>Dan</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Sam Wheeler <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:swheeler@ucla.edu" target="_blank">swheeler@ucla.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">I support Chad's proposal to go to a flat one circle system.<div><br></div><div>
But if nothing else, the rules for the start should be clarified and/or revised. As they stand now (at least as I read them), a boat that fouls near the middle of the start line may only be required to do one turn, but a boat that fouls closer to either end would have to do two. I think at the very least we should treat all start line fouls consistently.<div>
<br></div><div>Also, our current rules as written seem to require a two turn penalty for contact with a mark (Rule 31 violation), even if there is no right of way violation with respect to another boat (Part 2 violation). This is an increase in severity compared to the standard RRS. Is that intentional?</div>
<div><br></div><div>I've included the relevant part of the NOR/SI below.<br><div><br><div>Sam</div><div><br></div><div>-----</div><div><br></div><div><div>8 PENALTY SYSTEM</div><div><br></div><div>8.1 Competitors that commit a foul during a race shall exonerate themselves by taking a One-Turn Penalty (1 turn in same direction with 1 tack & 1 gybe) when three or more boat lengths from any mark. This changes rule 44.1 and 44.2. <i>[does this actually modify 44.2? looks like it just modifies 44.1 to me -sw]</i></div>
<div><br></div><div>8.2 If a foul is committed within the threeboat length circle of any mark, including the starting pin and race committee boat, a Two-Turn Penalty (2 turns in same direction with 2 tacks & 2 gybes) is required to exonerate a boat. This changes rule 44.1.</div>
</div><div><br><div><div class="im"><div>On Jun 13, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Chad Gray <<a href="mailto:chad.gray@gmail.com" target="_blank">chad.gray@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="auto">
<div class="im"><div>Section 8 of the NOR/SIs on the <a href="http://vanguard15.org/" target="_blank">Vanguard15.org</a> homepage seems to say 720 at any mark including starting pin. <a href="https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5-ubTdb22F3V3psNFRzLUNTcGc/preview?pli=1" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5-ubTdb22F3V3psNFRzLUNTcGc/preview?pli=1</a> where are you seeing 360 at the start?</div>
<div><br></div><div>I would like to throw out there, however, the possibility of making it a one circle penalty in all cases. This would be a change to the fleet SIs so would obviously require discussion and general consensus.</div>
<div><br></div><div>My reasoning:</div><div>(1) Given the shortness of our races and compression of the fleet, a 360 is a pretty huge penalty, typically 3 to 5 places. That's a sufficient deterrent. A 720 is probably double that, or puts you so far back that the rest of the race is catch up</div>
<div>(2) We're struggling to get compliance with people accepting their penalties, and we clearly don't have a well functioning off the water protest system (though I wholeheartedly agree that we should). A 360 penalty is less severe, and therefore less likely to be ignored entirely</div>
<div>(3) There is always confusion about whether it's one or two circles, whether you're at 4-3-2 boat lengths, whether the guy spinning did one or two circles etc... Are you spinning for a foul or a hit mark? A flat one circle would be simpler.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I'm not suggesting that we water down the rules just because people refuse to follow them, just that we should reconsider the 2 circle penalty and decide whether that makes sense for our racing format and level of seriousness</div>
<div><br></div><div>Chad</div><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:13 AM, Madeline Eustis <<a href="mailto:mfeustis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mfeustis@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div class="im"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Small question/possible correction:<br><br></div>My reading of the SIs indicates that fouls at marks and finish mandate a 720, whereas all other fouls (including the start) are only a 360.<br>
<br></div>Comments?<br><br></div>Maddy<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="im">On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Claire Hulse <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:claire.hulse@gmail.com" target="_blank">claire.hulse@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="im">Fleet:<div><br></div><div>I think we can all agree that it's best to
resolve any differences on the water by spinning circles when you foul
(reminder: 2 circles for fouls at a mark or start/finish, 1 circle
elsewhere). </div>
<div><br></div><div>That said, the scorers / co-chairs have been hearing
grumbling / pleading when entering scores about how some boats
aren't spinning when fouling. </div><div><br></div><div>Instead of
pleading your case while we're entering scores, <b>please consider using
the 3 min justice system, and reporting the results to the scorers /
co-chairs</b>. This is a good explanation of 3 min justice: <a href="http://www.sailingeducation.com/3minute.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sailingeducation.com/3minute.htm.</a>
To avoid burdening the fleet with too much procedure and formality,
this is the ONLY mechanism for resolving penalties off the water (other
than voluntarily withdrawing from a race). We will amend the SIs to
reflect this long-standing fleet practice. <br>
</div><div><div><br></div><div>Relatedly, if you help out with a rescue or drive a
rescue boat (see the SIs), please let the scorers know which races you
assisted in. </div><div><br></div></div><div>Yours in the Corinthian spirit,</div>
<div><br>Claire<br></div>Thurs Night Co-Chair</div><div><div><br></div><div class="im"><div>and <br><br>Steve<br></div><div>Tues Night Co-Chair<br></div></div></div></div><div class="im">
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Sfv15 mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Sfv15@myfleet.org" target="_blank">Sfv15@myfleet.org</a><br>
<a href="http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/sfv15" target="_blank">http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/sfv15</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>-- <br><img src="https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=18dd07f938&view=att&th=13a9000af6874985&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=f_h8nnc69g0&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P-9ooTusTmjc14TgPiwdx7b&sadet=1351037321990&sads=Fy8zr2Va0BaBf_h-scJhTZ-ATLU"><br>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote><div class="im"><blockquote type="cite"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Sfv15 mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Sfv15@myfleet.org" target="_blank">Sfv15@myfleet.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href="http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/sfv15" target="_blank">http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/sfv15</a></span><br></blockquote></div></div><div class="im">_______________________________________________<br>
Sfv15 mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Sfv15@myfleet.org" target="_blank">Sfv15@myfleet.org</a><br><a href="http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/sfv15" target="_blank">http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/sfv15</a><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Sfv15 mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Sfv15@myfleet.org">Sfv15@myfleet.org</a><br>
<a href="http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/sfv15" target="_blank">http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/sfv15</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>