<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:tahoma, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV>Sorry, sent the below from the wrong e-mail and not my fleet e-mail address, also neglected to include a signature, so figured I ought at least identify myself:</DIV>
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<DIV>Kristen Soetebier</DIV>
<DIV>#318</DIV>
<DIV>Pueo</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Also, I noticed a few sentences that should be edited better to be more accurate, but I left them as is for now.
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> KS <sweetbier@att.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> keay@keay3.net; tuna@myfleet.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> pk@well.com; TBeetle@pacbell.net<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, April 11, 2013 11:06:47 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Santana 22] Rules Question<BR></FONT><BR>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">OK, he he - having recently taken some rules courses, I'll take a stab at some analysis and I welcome other thoughts, especially from those experienced rules gurus out there about stuff I might be missing or interpreting incorrectly. Wow, thinking about this is hard enough, then trying to put the thoughts into words, and then words that will make sense to someone else! Whah! <BR> <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">According to what I can tell from the video, all three boats are going downwind on the same tack, port; so a starboard right of way does not apply. Therefore the following rules could apply: 11, 12, 17, 16.1, and 15. Lots of issues possibly at play and complicated as the scenario moves through time and the obligations change.<BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Until about :26 sec you (Keay-Dayspring) are clear astern of all boats and required to keep clear of everyone under Rule 12. You first overlap Pip (James) and based on the position of the sails, downwind, you overtake to windward of Pip and therefore you still must keep clear now under Rule 11 as windward boat. As to whether Rule 15 applies to Pip, it could be argued Pip has now lost right away as boat clear ahead, but has acquired right of way as leeward boat because of your actions and therefore seemingly under rule 15 is not required to give you room to keep clear initially and may try to sail above his proper course to protect his wind and keep you up. That may not be useful, but he may do so. I have found support to indicate that because Pip had right of way all along he is not "acquiring" anything at the overlap, so
rule 15 does not apply. Either way, at this moment, Keay, in response to whatever Pip does, would need to remain clear of Pip as overtaking windward boat, and clear of Kelly (Leah) as Keay is still clear astern. <BR> <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">At this point neither of you has overlapped Kelly (Leah) and so both must keep clear of her under Rule 12. So, if Pip luffed up, Keay must respond, and must do so keeping clear of Kelly. Things change once you have overlapped Kelly to leeward. Under Rule 11, Kelly must keep clear of you as windward boat; however, if you overlapped to leeward of Kelly within two hull lengths from clear astern (in this case 44 feet), Rule 17 will apply to you and restrict you to sailing your proper course. You must still also keep clear of Pip, as you are windward boat to him so at that point seems you have an obligation to both boats-not the best position to be in and why you might not want to shoot into the middle in such close proximity while on the course. What gets interesting is what is Pip allowed to do now, and how may you respond, and
whether Rule 17 might keep both you and Pip from taking up Kelly while you are two hull lengths to leeward of her.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <BR>According to the definition of overlap, because Pip is overlapped with you, Pip also becomes overlapped with Kelly when you overlap Kelly. If you were over 44 feet away from her when you became overlapped, it is safe to assume, Pip, even further leeward, also was far enough away, and then Kelly would be required to keep clear of both you and Pip, even if you both luffed up and sailed above "proper course," because she is windward boat; Rule 17 would not apply to you or Pip. </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">But, in the video, though difficult to determine for certain, it does rather look like at least you, if not both you and Pip become overlapped within the two hull lengths of Kelly to leeward at about :55. So let's look first at what might happen if both of you are within two hull lengths to leeward when you become overlapped with Kelly.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">As Pip is to leeward of Kelly, and clear astern of Kelly, Rule 17 may apply to Pip with respect to Kelly, even though it does not apply between Pip and you (because he was overtaken by you to windward). Once overlapped with Kelly, Rule 17 may now operate to restrict Pip from sailing above his proper course and luffing you up too, because, if he luffs above his proper course after the overlap, even rightfully to force you up, he fouls Kelly. He would not foul you under that rule, though, because you have to keep clear of him. So, if you luff up too, to keep clear of Pip, you would foul Kelly under Rule 17 by sailing above your proper course, and it seems then you are out of luck, unless you promptly sail astern of Kelly while doing so. If you both are sailing your proper courses then Kelly must
give way and luff up if that is what is required to give way. What your proper courses are is seems trickier downwind than upwind because you would not exactly be "luffing" by going head to wind - so this idea can use comment from the more experienced. </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">It's been argued to me that if you are required to avoid Pip and luff up to do so, that action would be considered a part of your proper course and Kelly would still need to keep clear of you. I'm not buying that argument because I can't find any support that luffing up can be part of a proper course, especially in this case when it appears you can choose to pass to her stern, but again there in lies the rub, and someone who knows more about defining proper course could say. The definition for proper course includes the phrase "absent other boats" and it's been told to me it matters where other boats are, in affecting your proper course. </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">So now let's take the scenario assuming you are within two hull lengths of Kelly when you become overlapped to leeward of her, but Pip is far enough away that he is not within two hull lengths, and therefore Rule 17 would not apply to him towards Kelly. We already know Rule 17 wouldn't apply to you and Pip. So it seems in this case, Pip can sail wherever he wants without this restriction, though he is required to give you room to keep clear of him under 16.1 if he changes course. This is where it becomes interesting as to what you should do. Either way it seems you have an obligation to Kelly, not to sail above your proper course while remaining overlapped at the 44 foot distance (again depends on what proper course is). Does your proper course include luffing into Kelly to avoid Pip who can rightfully
luff into you? As stated above I don't think so, because I believe you can go around to stern of her. Maybe not.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Regardless, I think Kelly is still required to keep clear of you and Pip, no matter what, to avoid fouling either of you in either scenario, her obligation to you does not change, but whether you or Pip foul her seems solely to depend on interpreting distance and your proper courses as leeward boats. If you are able to maintain "proper course" that takes either of you into Kelly, then she must luff up to keep clear as windward boat under Rule 11 and neither of you have committed a rule violation. </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">There are other little side issues that also might come into play.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The ultimate moral of the story maybe? Just always be in front. :)</DIV>
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<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Articles re Proper Course and luffing:<BR></P>
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<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">http://www.sailingworld.com/article/Clarifying-Proper-Course-and-Luffing</P>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>http://youthdev.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/080311_luffingrights.pdf<BR><BR><BR>ISAF cases interpreting Rules 11 and 17 - nothing quite on point with three boats and middle boat taking the action: </DIV>
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<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>Rule 11, On the Same Tack, Overlapped</P><FONT face=Times-Roman><FONT face=Times-Roman>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>CASE 7</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>When, after having been clear astern, a boat becomes overlapped to leeward</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>within two of her hull lengths of the other boat, the windward boat must keep</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>clear, but the leeward boat must initially give the windward boat room to</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>keep clear and must not sail above her proper course.</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>CASE 14</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course,</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear.</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>courses.</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>CASE 24</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>When a boat becomes overlapped to leeward from clear astern, the other boat</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>must act promptly to keep clear. When she cannot do so in a seamanlike way,</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>she has not been given sufficient room. If she takes unnecessary action that</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>causes contact, she fails to keep clear as required.</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>CASE 46</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>A leeward boat is entitled to sail up to her proper course, even when she has</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>established a leeward overlap from clear astern and within two of her hull</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>lengths of the windward boat.</P></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Times-Roman><FONT face=Times-Roman>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>CASE 51</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>A protest committee must exonerate boats when, as a result of another boat’s</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>breach of a rule, they are all compelled to break a rule.</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>CASE 53</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>A boat clear ahead need not take any action to keep clear before being</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" align=left>overlapped to leeward from clear astern.</P></FONT></FONT>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Keay Edwards <keay@keay3.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> tuna@myfleet.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wed, April 10, 2013 1:02:14 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Santana 22] Rules Question<BR></FONT><BR>Hello All,<BR><BR>I posted this to the messages area of the Santana site, Jennifer thought it might be better to post directly to the list. <BR><BR><BR>Curious about what rules govern in this example of downwind to the line racing (see video link below). All three boats have rounded the weather mark are heading to the finish. My boat, the overtaking boat must keep clear so I steer to port of James's boat ( the one with the octopus). Leah's boat is to my port. Are all boats supposed to keep clear of each other once overlap is achieved? What if the boat to my port were to have sailed
in to pinch me between James's boat ( or could James, being Leeward, have sailed up to push Leah and me away from the line)? We are all playing nice, but I am just curious what the implications are.<BR><BR>Here is a video illustrating the question:<BR><BR><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9U_N5CE8kw&feature=share&list=UUrv6Vwgvd4gTF6SecZW36pg" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9U_N5CE8kw&feature=share&list=UUrv6Vwgvd4gTF6SecZW36pg</A><BR><BR>Thanks for your thoughts,<BR><BR>Keay<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Tuna mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Tuna@myfleet.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:Tuna@myfleet.org">Tuna@myfleet.org</A><BR><A href="http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/tuna" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/tuna</A><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>