Thank you Jim. I appreciate your detailed explanations... I'll try the plan
you suggest!
Jorge
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Jim Barkow <jim.barkow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's my quick take:
>>http://www.sailingworld.com/from-the-experts/rules/get-past-obstructions-with-rule-19-1000071499-p2.html>> "When Zack becomes overlapped to leeward of Carla, several things all
> happen at that moment. (1) Zack acquires right of way over Carla under Rule
> 11. (2) Zack must initially give Carla room to fulfill her new obligation
> to keep clear (Rule 15). (3) Carla becomes obligated to keep clear of Zack
> (Rule 11), and she must also give Zack room between her and Dave under
> Rule 19.2(b) unless, despite trying to give room from the time the overlap
> began, she is unable to do so. (5) Zack must continue to keep clear of
> Dave, first under Rule 12 and after he overlaps Dave under Rule 11. "
>> There seems to be 2 situations: Before the start and after the start.
> Before:
>> "There is one key factor that makes life rough for Zack. Carla has been
> moving very slowly with her sails luffing, and she is not required to make
> any effort to fulfill her obligations under Rules 11, 15, and 19.2(b) until
> Zack actually gets an overlap on her (see ISAF Case 53)."
>> Following these 2 bold sections- (keeping Zack/Zack, 4/windward boat/Carla,
> 5/Leeward boat/Dave) and your description if feels like there wasn't a foul-
> but one pissed off windward boat. If Zack gave room for 4 to keep clear, 4
> kept clear, no affect on 5, and no collision- then it appears to have worked
> out. 4 should have closed the gap and put main out. I'm guessing this was
> not the case though if you asked the other party.
>> As the rule write up even says
> with a 2 boat width gap (leaving one for apparent main and the 'fudge'
> factor)- that's a bold maneuver. It is important to note that 4 is not
> required to give you rights or room until you have overlap clear
> established. Almost any sailor would close the gap very quickly- with rights
> to do so- and leave you coming in very late to create a hole vs entering
> into one, which is a different situation. And then you must give them room
> to keep clear. This is not instant and on the starting line, already
> luffing, makes the obligation and ability even less and smaller for 4. I bet
> 4 has a different story and the rules seem to favor 4 in this situation.
>> Your explanation of Z below appears that Zack has no foul committed against
> him- 4 in this case, might feel differently and would be interesting to hear
> their side.
>> After the start:
> 4 should keep clear- but would need to hear their story- such as if Zack
> continued to give 4 time and opportunity to do so. If 4 was headed to wind,
> luffing- you'd have to assume they'd have stopped and lost traction- in
> which case they could side slip into Zack with no ability to keep clear. If
> that's the case, then Zack should give them opportunity to.
>> Zack would need a pretty strong case in my opinion. It's also clear that
> the rules are in favor of 4 and 5, putting the obligations on Zack for the
> most part.
>> Personally, (and this is pure editorial) I think it's pretty weak to line
> up late and try to snake a hole. Be a man, step up, claim your spot, game
> on. You'll never make a friend doing that! It's Thursday sailing- you'll
> only get better trying.
>> - jb
>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Jorge Moraleda <jorge.moraleda at gmail.com>wrote:
>>> Dear sailing friends,
>>>> Kevin mentioned tonight the article "Get Past Obstructions With Rule
>> 19" by Dick Rose that appears in the May issue of Sailing World (p.66)
>>>> The last section of that article talks about what happens when a late
>> comer is trying to get a front row start by sneaking in between two
>> boats that are already there. I still don't understand how all the
>> rules interplay in the real world in this situation. I am hoping that
>> maybe you can help me.
>>>> As background, I just read the afore mentioned article, ISAF case #53
>> mentioned there, and I have reread all rules in part 2.
>>>> Now imagine the following case (which may sound familiar to all of you):
>>>> Assume 8 boats are about 2 boat lengths from the line 30s before a V15
>> start. All of them are next to each other, pretty much head to wind
>> (but on starboard) and with little forward momentum. Say that between
>> boats 4 and 5 (counting from the boat end) there are between 2 and 3
>> boat widths. There is even less space between the others.
>>>> At this time, Boat Z coming from behind on starboard (like everyone
>> else) with a just a little more momentum that the boats ahead of her
>> is about to sneak between 4 and 5 to try to get a front row start. 4,
>> to winward of Z puts her bow down to try to protect her space and
>> hails Z to not come in there. Z disregards the call and goes into the
>> space any way. 4 is annoyed but comes up almost to head to wind to
>> avoid Z. Z luffs her sail and goes head to wind herself to avoid 5 (to
>> leeward of her). Now 4, Z, and 5 are all overlapped on starboard with
>> barely any momentum and almost head to wind.
>>>> No contact has occurred yet.
>>>> The starting signal is given. Z continues keeping her bow up to avoid
>> 5, who is still not close hauled (probably to avoid 6). 4 puts her
>> bown down to close hauled which results in contact between the bow of
>> Z and the port bow of 4.
>>>> ---------
>>>> Who did what right? Who did what wrong? What should have been the
>> ideal behavior for each of the actors in this situation... In
>> particular
>>>> 1) Should Z not have gone in between 4 and 5? In general, when should
>> a call "no room" / "don't go in there" be given? When should it be
>> heeded? When should it be ignored?
>>>> 2) Should 4 have kept her bow up and continue keeping clear of Z who
>> was a leeward boat?
>>>> -------------
>>>> What would have to be different in the scenario for the answer to be
>> the opposite?
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Jorge
>> 946
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sfv15 mailing list
>>Sfv15 at myfleet.org>>http://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/sfv15>>>>-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://myfleet.org/pipermail/sfv15/attachments/20090508/8ded287b/attachment.html>
