This is why I just move when yelled at.
-mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 11, 2013, at 12:37 PM, tuna-request at myfleet.org wrote:
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>>> Today's Topics:
>> 1. Re: Rules Question (Kristen Staff Commodore IYC)
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:52:56 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Kristen Staff Commodore IYC <ksoeiyc at att.net>
> To: keay at keay3.net, tuna at myfleet.org> Cc: TBeetle at pacbell.net, pk at well.com> Subject: Re: [Santana 22] Rules Question
> Message-ID:
> <1365709976.72315.YahooMailRC at web181505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> Sorry, sent the below from the wrong e-mail and not my?fleet e-mail
> address,?also neglected to include a signature, so figured I ought at
> least?identify myself:
>> Kristen Soetebier
> #318
> Pueo
>> Also, I noticed a few sentences that should be edited better to be more
> accurate,?but I left them as is for now.??
>>> ________________________________
> From: KS <sweetbier at att.net>
> To: keay at keay3.net; tuna at myfleet.org> Cc: pk at well.com; TBeetle at pacbell.net> Sent: Thu, April 11, 2013 11:06:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [Santana 22] Rules Question
>>> OK, he he?- having recently taken some rules courses, I'll take a stab at some
> analysis and I welcome other thoughts, especially from those experienced rules
> gurus out there about stuff I might be missing or interpreting incorrectly.?
> Wow, thinking about this is hard enough, then trying to put the thoughts into
> words, and then words that will make sense to someone else!? Whah!
>> ?
>> According to what I can tell from the video, all three boats are going downwind
> on the same tack, port; so?a starboard right of way does not apply. Therefore
> the following?rules could apply: 11, 12, 17, 16.1, and 15. Lots of issues
> possibly at play and?complicated as the scenario moves through time and?the
> obligations change.
>>> Until about :26 sec you (Keay-Dayspring) are clear astern of all boats and
> required to keep clear of everyone under Rule 12.? You first overlap Pip
> (James)?and based on the position of the sails, downwind, you?overtake to
> windward of Pip and therefore you still must keep clear now under Rule 11 as
> windward boat.? As to whether Rule 15 applies to Pip, it could be argued Pip has
> now lost right away as boat clear ahead, but has acquired right?of way as
> leeward boat?because of your actions and therefore seemingly under rule 15 is
> not required to give you room to keep clear initially and may try to sail?above
> his proper course?to protect his wind and?keep you up.? That may not be useful,
> but he may do so.? I have found support to indicate that because Pip had right
> of way all along he is not "acquiring" anything at the overlap, so rule 15 does
> not apply.? Either way, at this moment, Keay, in response to whatever Pip does,
> would need to remain clear of Pip as overtaking windward boat, and clear of
> Kelly (Leah) as Keay is still clear astern.?
>> ?
>> At this point neither of you has overlapped Kelly (Leah) and so both must keep
> clear of her under Rule 12.? So, if Pip luffed up, Keay must respond, and must
> do so keeping clear of Kelly.? Things change once you have overlapped Kelly to
> leeward.??Under Rule 11, Kelly must keep clear of you as windward boat; however,
> if you overlapped to leeward of?Kelly?within two hull lengths from clear astern
> (in this case 44 feet), Rule 17?will apply to you and restrict you to sailing
> your proper course.? You must still also keep clear of Pip, as you are windward
> boat to him so at that point seems you have an obligation to both boats-not the
> best position to be in and why you might not want to shoot into the middle in
> such close proximity while on the course.? What gets interesting is what is Pip
> allowed to do now, and how may you respond, and whether?Rule 17 might?keep both
> you and Pip from taking up Kelly while you are two hull lengths?to leeward of
> her.
> ???
> According to the definition of overlap, because Pip is overlapped with you,
> Pip?also becomes overlapped with Kelly when you overlap Kelly.? If you were over
> 44 feet away from her when you became overlapped, it is safe to assume, Pip,
> even further leeward, also was far enough away, and then?Kelly would be required
> to keep clear of both you and Pip, even if you both luffed up and sailed above
> "proper course," because she is windward boat;?Rule 17?would not apply to you or
> Pip.?
>>> But, in the video, though difficult to determine for certain,?it does rather
> look like?at least?you,?if not?both?you and Pip?become overlapped?within the two
> hull lengths of Kelly to leeward at about :55.? So let's look first at what
> might happen if both of you are within two hull lengths to leeward when you
> become overlapped with Kelly.
>> As Pip is to?leeward?of Kelly, and clear astern of Kelly,??Rule 17 may apply
> to?Pip with respect to Kelly, even though it does not apply between Pip and you
> (because he was overtaken by you to windward).??? Once overlapped with Kelly,
> Rule 17 may?now operate to restrict Pip from sailing above his proper course and
> luffing you up too, because,?if he luffs above his proper course after the
> overlap, even rightfully to force you up, he fouls Kelly.? He would not foul you
> under that rule, though,?because you have to keep clear of him.? So,?if you luff
> up too, to keep clear of Pip, you would foul Kelly under Rule 17 by sailing
> above your proper course, and it seems then you are out of luck, unless you
> promptly sail astern of Kelly while doing so.? If you both are sailing your
> proper courses then?Kelly must give way and luff up if that is what is required
> to give way.? What your proper courses are is seems trickier downwind than
> upwind because you would not exactly be "luffing" by going?head to wind - so
> this idea can use comment from the more experienced.?
>>> It's been?argued?to me?that if you are required to avoid Pip and luff up to do
> so, that action would be considered a part of your proper course and Kelly would
> still need to keep clear of you.? I'm not buying that argument because I can't
> find any support that luffing up can be part of a proper course, especially in
> this case when it appears you can choose to pass to her stern, but again there
> in lies the rub,?and someone who knows more about defining proper course could
> say.? The definition for proper course includes the phrase "absent other boats"
> and it's been told to me it matters where other boats are, in affecting your
> proper course.?
>> So now let's take?the scenario?assuming you are within two hull lengths of Kelly
> when you become overlapped to leeward of her,?but Pip is far enough away that he
> is not within two hull lengths, and therefore Rule 17 would not apply to
> him?towards Kelly.? We already know Rule 17 wouldn't apply to you and Pip.? So
> it seems in this case, Pip can sail wherever he wants without this restriction,
> though he?is required to give you room to keep clear of him under 16.1 if he
> changes course.?This is where it becomes interesting as to what you should do.?
> Either way it seems you have an obligation to Kelly, not to sail above your
> proper course while remaining overlapped at?the 44 foot?distance (again depends
> on what?proper course?is).??Does your proper course include luffing into Kelly
> to avoid Pip who can rightfully luff into you??As stated above I don't think so,
> because I believe you can go around to stern of her.? Maybe not.
>> Regardless, I think Kelly is still required to keep clear of you and Pip, no
> matter what, to avoid fouling either of you in either scenario, her obligation
> to you does not change, but whether you or Pip foul her seems solely to depend
> on interpreting distance and your proper courses as leeward boats.? If you are
> able to maintain "proper course" that?takes either of you into Kelly, then she
> must luff up to keep clear as windward boat under Rule 11 and neither of you
> have committed a rule violation.?
>>> There are other little side issues?that also might come into play.
>>> The ultimate moral of the story maybe?? Just always be in front. :)
> ?
> ?
> Articles re Proper Course and luffing:
>>>http://www.sailingworld.com/article/Clarifying-Proper-Course-and-Luffing>>http://youthdev.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/080311_luffingrights.pdf>>> ISAF cases interpreting Rules 11 and?17 - nothing quite on point with three
> boats and middle boat taking the action:
>> ?
> Rule 11, On the Same Tack, OverlappedCASE 7
> When, after having been clear astern, a boat becomes overlapped to leeward
> within two of her hull lengths of the other boat, the windward boat must keep
> clear, but the leeward boat must initially give the windward boat room to
> keep clear and must not sail above her proper course.
> CASE 14
> When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat?s proper course,
> two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear.
> Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper
> courses.
> CASE 24
> When a boat becomes overlapped to leeward from clear astern, the other boat
> must act promptly to keep clear. When she cannot do so in a seamanlike way,
> she has not been given sufficient room. If she takes unnecessary action that
> causes contact, she fails to keep clear as required.
> CASE 46
> A leeward boat is entitled to sail up to her proper course, even when she has
> established a leeward overlap from clear astern and within two of her hull
> lengths of the windward boat.CASE 51
> A protest committee must exonerate boats when, as a result of another boat?s
> breach of a rule, they are all compelled to break a rule.
> CASE 53
> A boat clear ahead need not take any action to keep clear before being
> overlapped to leeward from clear astern.
> ?
>>>>> ________________________________
> From: Keay Edwards <keay at keay3.net>
> To: tuna at myfleet.org> Sent: Wed, April 10, 2013 1:02:14 PM
> Subject: [Santana 22] Rules Question
>> Hello All,
>> I posted this to the messages area of the Santana site, Jennifer thought it
> might be better to post directly to the list.?
>>>> Curious about what rules govern in this example of downwind to the line racing
> (see video link below).? All three boats have rounded the weather mark are
> heading to the finish.? My boat, the overtaking boat must keep clear so I steer
> to port of James's boat ( the one with the octopus).? Leah's boat is to my
> port.? Are all boats supposed to keep clear of each other once overlap is
> achieved?? What if the boat to my port were to have sailed in to pinch me
> between James's boat ( or could James, being Leeward, have sailed up to push
> Leah and me away from the line)?? We are all playing nice, but I am just curious
> what the implications are.
>> Here is a video illustrating the question:
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9U_N5CE8kw&feature=share&list=UUrv6Vwgvd4gTF6SecZW36pg>>> Thanks for your thoughts,
>> Keay
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