I'd be comfortable moving to a flat 1-turn penalty, but it should be clear
that penalties are *supposed* to be painful in short-course racing. Sailors
should take that into account when making risky plays. Coming in on port at
the windward mark is a perfect example. You might win big by doing it, but
you also might lose big. If you eliminate the risk of losing big when you
take that risk (either by not spinning or only spinning once), you
inherently change the game. I'd argue you're changing the game in a bad way.
Let's plan to talk as a group after racing tonight. I'm sure everyone has a
different take, but no need to send out emails to everyone on the list as
we hash it out. :)
Dan
On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Sam Wheeler <swheeler at ucla.edu> wrote:
> I support Chad's proposal to go to a flat one circle system.
>> But if nothing else, the rules for the start should be clarified and/or
> revised. As they stand now (at least as I read them), a boat that fouls
> near the middle of the start line may only be required to do one turn, but
> a boat that fouls closer to either end would have to do two. I think at
> the very least we should treat all start line fouls consistently.
>> Also, our current rules as written seem to require a two turn penalty for
> contact with a mark (Rule 31 violation), even if there is no right of way
> violation with respect to another boat (Part 2 violation). This is an
> increase in severity compared to the standard RRS. Is that intentional?
>> I've included the relevant part of the NOR/SI below.
>> Sam
>> -----
>> 8 PENALTY SYSTEM
>> 8.1 Competitors that commit a foul during a race shall exonerate
> themselves by taking a One-Turn Penalty (1 turn in same direction with 1
> tack & 1 gybe) when three or more boat lengths from any mark. This changes
> rule 44.1 and 44.2. *[does this actually modify 44.2? looks like it just
> modifies 44.1 to me -sw]*
>> 8.2 If a foul is committed within the threeboat length circle of any
> mark, including the starting pin and race committee boat, a Two-Turn
> Penalty (2 turns in same direction with 2 tacks & 2 gybes) is required to
> exonerate a boat. This changes rule 44.1.
>> On Jun 13, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Chad Gray <chad.gray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Section 8 of the NOR/SIs on the Vanguard15.org <http://vanguard15.org/>homepage seems to say 720 at any mark including starting pin.
>https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5-ubTdb22F3V3psNFRzLUNTcGc/preview?pli=1> where are you seeing 360 at the start?
>> I would like to throw out there, however, the possibility of making it a
> one circle penalty in all cases. This would be a change to the fleet SIs
> so would obviously require discussion and general consensus.
>> My reasoning:
> (1) Given the shortness of our races and compression of the fleet, a 360
> is a pretty huge penalty, typically 3 to 5 places. That's a sufficient
> deterrent. A 720 is probably double that, or puts you so far back that the
> rest of the race is catch up
> (2) We're struggling to get compliance with people accepting their
> penalties, and we clearly don't have a well functioning off the water
> protest system (though I wholeheartedly agree that we should). A 360
> penalty is less severe, and therefore less likely to be ignored entirely
> (3) There is always confusion about whether it's one or two circles,
> whether you're at 4-3-2 boat lengths, whether the guy spinning did one or
> two circles etc... Are you spinning for a foul or a hit mark? A flat one
> circle would be simpler.
>> I'm not suggesting that we water down the rules just because people refuse
> to follow them, just that we should reconsider the 2 circle penalty and
> decide whether that makes sense for our racing format and level of
> seriousness
>> Chad
>> Sent from my iPad
>> On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:13 AM, Madeline Eustis <mfeustis at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Small question/possible correction:
>> My reading of the SIs indicates that fouls at marks and finish mandate a
> 720, whereas all other fouls (including the start) are only a 360.
>> Comments?
>> Maddy
>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Claire Hulse <claire.hulse at gmail.com>wrote:
>>> Fleet:
>>>> I think we can all agree that it's best to resolve any differences on the
>> water by spinning circles when you foul (reminder: 2 circles for fouls at a
>> mark or start/finish, 1 circle elsewhere).
>>>> That said, the scorers / co-chairs have been hearing grumbling / pleading
>> when entering scores about how some boats aren't spinning when fouling.
>>>> Instead of pleading your case while we're entering scores, *please
>> consider using the 3 min justice system, and reporting the results to the
>> scorers / co-chairs*. This is a good explanation of 3 min justice:
>>http://www.sailingeducation.com/3minute.htm.<http://www.sailingeducation.com/3minute.htm>
>> To avoid burdening the fleet with too much procedure and formality, this is
>> the ONLY mechanism for resolving penalties off the water (other than
>> voluntarily withdrawing from a race). We will amend the SIs to reflect
>> this long-standing fleet practice.
>>>> Relatedly, if you help out with a rescue or drive a rescue boat (see the
>> SIs), please let the scorers know which races you assisted in.
>>>> Yours in the Corinthian spirit,
>>>> Claire
>> Thurs Night Co-Chair
>>>> and
>>>> Steve
>> Tues Night Co-Chair
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