Sorry, sent the below from the wrong e-mail and not my fleet e-mail
address, also neglected to include a signature, so figured I ought at
least identify myself:
Kristen Soetebier
#318
Pueo
Also, I noticed a few sentences that should be edited better to be more
accurate, but I left them as is for now.
________________________________
From: KS <sweetbier at att.net>
To: keay at keay3.net; tuna at myfleet.org
Cc: pk at well.com; TBeetle at pacbell.net
Sent: Thu, April 11, 2013 11:06:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Santana 22] Rules Question
OK, he he - having recently taken some rules courses, I'll take a stab at some
analysis and I welcome other thoughts, especially from those experienced rules
gurus out there about stuff I might be missing or interpreting incorrectly.
Wow, thinking about this is hard enough, then trying to put the thoughts into
words, and then words that will make sense to someone else! Whah!
According to what I can tell from the video, all three boats are going downwind
on the same tack, port; so a starboard right of way does not apply. Therefore
the following rules could apply: 11, 12, 17, 16.1, and 15. Lots of issues
possibly at play and complicated as the scenario moves through time and the
obligations change.
Until about :26 sec you (Keay-Dayspring) are clear astern of all boats and
required to keep clear of everyone under Rule 12. You first overlap Pip
(James) and based on the position of the sails, downwind, you overtake to
windward of Pip and therefore you still must keep clear now under Rule 11 as
windward boat. As to whether Rule 15 applies to Pip, it could be argued Pip has
now lost right away as boat clear ahead, but has acquired right of way as
leeward boat because of your actions and therefore seemingly under rule 15 is
not required to give you room to keep clear initially and may try to sail above
his proper course to protect his wind and keep you up. That may not be useful,
but he may do so. I have found support to indicate that because Pip had right
of way all along he is not "acquiring" anything at the overlap, so rule 15 does
not apply. Either way, at this moment, Keay, in response to whatever Pip does,
would need to remain clear of Pip as overtaking windward boat, and clear of
Kelly (Leah) as Keay is still clear astern.
At this point neither of you has overlapped Kelly (Leah) and so both must keep
clear of her under Rule 12. So, if Pip luffed up, Keay must respond, and must
do so keeping clear of Kelly. Things change once you have overlapped Kelly to
leeward. Under Rule 11, Kelly must keep clear of you as windward boat; however,
if you overlapped to leeward of Kelly within two hull lengths from clear astern
(in this case 44 feet), Rule 17 will apply to you and restrict you to sailing
your proper course. You must still also keep clear of Pip, as you are windward
boat to him so at that point seems you have an obligation to both boats-not the
best position to be in and why you might not want to shoot into the middle in
such close proximity while on the course. What gets interesting is what is Pip
allowed to do now, and how may you respond, and whether Rule 17 might keep both
you and Pip from taking up Kelly while you are two hull lengths to leeward of
her.
According to the definition of overlap, because Pip is overlapped with you,
Pip also becomes overlapped with Kelly when you overlap Kelly. If you were over
44 feet away from her when you became overlapped, it is safe to assume, Pip,
even further leeward, also was far enough away, and then Kelly would be required
to keep clear of both you and Pip, even if you both luffed up and sailed above
"proper course," because she is windward boat; Rule 17 would not apply to you or
Pip.
But, in the video, though difficult to determine for certain, it does rather
look like at least you, if not both you and Pip become overlapped within the two
hull lengths of Kelly to leeward at about :55. So let's look first at what
might happen if both of you are within two hull lengths to leeward when you
become overlapped with Kelly.
As Pip is to leeward of Kelly, and clear astern of Kelly, Rule 17 may apply
to Pip with respect to Kelly, even though it does not apply between Pip and you
(because he was overtaken by you to windward). Once overlapped with Kelly,
Rule 17 may now operate to restrict Pip from sailing above his proper course and
luffing you up too, because, if he luffs above his proper course after the
overlap, even rightfully to force you up, he fouls Kelly. He would not foul you
under that rule, though, because you have to keep clear of him. So, if you luff
up too, to keep clear of Pip, you would foul Kelly under Rule 17 by sailing
above your proper course, and it seems then you are out of luck, unless you
promptly sail astern of Kelly while doing so. If you both are sailing your
proper courses then Kelly must give way and luff up if that is what is required
to give way. What your proper courses are is seems trickier downwind than
upwind because you would not exactly be "luffing" by going head to wind - so
this idea can use comment from the more experienced.
It's been argued to me that if you are required to avoid Pip and luff up to do
so, that action would be considered a part of your proper course and Kelly would
still need to keep clear of you. I'm not buying that argument because I can't
find any support that luffing up can be part of a proper course, especially in
this case when it appears you can choose to pass to her stern, but again there
in lies the rub, and someone who knows more about defining proper course could
say. The definition for proper course includes the phrase "absent other boats"
and it's been told to me it matters where other boats are, in affecting your
proper course.
So now let's take the scenario assuming you are within two hull lengths of Kelly
when you become overlapped to leeward of her, but Pip is far enough away that he
is not within two hull lengths, and therefore Rule 17 would not apply to
him towards Kelly. We already know Rule 17 wouldn't apply to you and Pip. So
it seems in this case, Pip can sail wherever he wants without this restriction,
though he is required to give you room to keep clear of him under 16.1 if he
changes course. This is where it becomes interesting as to what you should do.
Either way it seems you have an obligation to Kelly, not to sail above your
proper course while remaining overlapped at the 44 foot distance (again depends
on what proper course is). Does your proper course include luffing into Kelly
to avoid Pip who can rightfully luff into you? As stated above I don't think so,
because I believe you can go around to stern of her. Maybe not.
Regardless, I think Kelly is still required to keep clear of you and Pip, no
matter what, to avoid fouling either of you in either scenario, her obligation
to you does not change, but whether you or Pip foul her seems solely to depend
on interpreting distance and your proper courses as leeward boats. If you are
able to maintain "proper course" that takes either of you into Kelly, then she
must luff up to keep clear as windward boat under Rule 11 and neither of you
have committed a rule violation.
There are other little side issues that also might come into play.
The ultimate moral of the story maybe? Just always be in front. :)
Articles re Proper Course and luffing:
http://www.sailingworld.com/article/Clarifying-Proper-Course-and-Luffinghttp://youthdev.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/080311_luffingrights.pdf
ISAF cases interpreting Rules 11 and 17 - nothing quite on point with three
boats and middle boat taking the action:
Rule 11, On the Same Tack, OverlappedCASE 7
When, after having been clear astern, a boat becomes overlapped to leeward
within two of her hull lengths of the other boat, the windward boat must keep
clear, but the leeward boat must initially give the windward boat room to
keep clear and must not sail above her proper course.
CASE 14
When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course,
two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear.
Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper
courses.
CASE 24
When a boat becomes overlapped to leeward from clear astern, the other boat
must act promptly to keep clear. When she cannot do so in a seamanlike way,
she has not been given sufficient room. If she takes unnecessary action that
causes contact, she fails to keep clear as required.
CASE 46
A leeward boat is entitled to sail up to her proper course, even when she has
established a leeward overlap from clear astern and within two of her hull
lengths of the windward boat.CASE 51
A protest committee must exonerate boats when, as a result of another boat’s
breach of a rule, they are all compelled to break a rule.
CASE 53
A boat clear ahead need not take any action to keep clear before being
overlapped to leeward from clear astern.
________________________________
From: Keay Edwards <keay at keay3.net>
To: tuna at myfleet.org
Sent: Wed, April 10, 2013 1:02:14 PM
Subject: [Santana 22] Rules Question
Hello All,
I posted this to the messages area of the Santana site, Jennifer thought it
might be better to post directly to the list.
Curious about what rules govern in this example of downwind to the line racing
(see video link below). All three boats have rounded the weather mark are
heading to the finish. My boat, the overtaking boat must keep clear so I steer
to port of James's boat ( the one with the octopus). Leah's boat is to my
port. Are all boats supposed to keep clear of each other once overlap is
achieved? What if the boat to my port were to have sailed in to pinch me
between James's boat ( or could James, being Leeward, have sailed up to push
Leah and me away from the line)? We are all playing nice, but I am just curious
what the implications are.
Here is a video illustrating the question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9U_N5CE8kw&feature=share&list=UUrv6Vwgvd4gTF6SecZW36pg
Thanks for your thoughts,
Keay
_______________________________________________
Tuna mailing list
Tuna at myfleet.orghttp://myfleet.org/mailman/listinfo/tuna
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://myfleet.org/pipermail/tuna/attachments/20130411/00891939/attachment.html>
